Poster
Message
PawnBroker99
Joined : 30 Jul '02
Moves : 4031
03 Jan '03 00:25 :: 0 recommendations
hi all, i'm relatively new to chess...anyhoo, i heard somehwere about capturing a pawn very early in the game with a bishop so only the king could re-capture, thereby slyly luring the king out off the back rank, susceptible to attack.....does anyone know what this is called/what' it's all about? and if this type of daring sacrifice has any merit...... cheers, tally ho, d-
Xenophile
The Jonster
Location : K-PAX
Joined : 16 Feb '02
Moves : 6418
03 Jan '03 01:35 :: 0 recommendations
I don't know what this tactic is called, but I've used it a couple times. To no great success I might add. Though I have never had great success with chess no matter what I do! The king does come under very early attack this way, and it usually never again finds itself well defended because, most importantly, it has lost the option of castling. And that's all I have to say about that. I'd be interested in learning more about this as well...
T1000
1 edit
Joined : 29 Jul '01
Moves : 60852
03 Jan '03 03:38 :: 0 recommendations
The weakest squares at the start of a game are f7 (for black) and f2 (for white). Only the king defends these squares. There exists openings which seek to exploit this (mainly openings for white against black). It only really works though if you follow these openings, for if you just make a few moves then wham sacrifice a piece on f7 then yes you will get a pawn, and you will get the king moving but that is all, which is not enough. But...like I said, there are openings which do have their plus points where a piece sac on f7 may pay dividends. Against top, top, top players these openings may be a little unsound. However, black needs to play very carefully a lot of the time to survive the initial onslaught so against weaker players these openings pose more of a threat. Often there are only one or two correct moves for black available - the top, top players will find them no probs, lesser players may not quite so easily. Unfortunately I don't have the time to find some example games for you, or to give the moves for some of the openings. What I can do is suggest that you go to a post in the Help and Site Ideas forum where the FENs are given for a number of openings. Under the part "Fun and Interesting Openings and Gambits" (something like that) there are a few which involve a sacrifice on f7. Off the top of my head the Cochrane Gambit is one, the Pegatello (Fried Liver) Attack is another. You may like to investigate these openings, where in both cases a knight is sacrificed on f7. Also, Bbar and Miss Take played a game (I have no wish to talk about the politics surrounding that game, this is the "only chess" forum) where a double sacrifice (one on f7) was undertaken by white and white went on to win with a monster attack very quickly. You might want to search for this game. Further, Bbar posted a thread regarding the Cochrane Gambit a few months back. Sintubin agreed to play a game against Bbar with this opening. Check it out. So, conclusion? 1. Don't just sacrifice on f7 if all you get back is a pawn and the moving of the king. Know what you're plan is on how you are going to exploit and attack the king on f7. 2. Look out for possible forks (where a piece attacks in one direction and also attacks in another, different, direction. Often with the king out on f7 moving the queen to f3 will cause black to have to defend the check, which may allow the white queen then to reclaim a piece elsewhere on the board. 3. Against outstanding players some, if not all, of the sacrificial openings on f7 early doors are unlikely to come off and succeed. 4. If you are black and it happens to you, play with great care for a few moves in the immediate aftermath. If you can withold white's charge and aggresion in the short term then you will have the long term advantage. Mark
!~TONY~!
I have a problem
Location : Your Kingside
Joined : 28 Sep '01
Moves : 33068
03 Jan '03 05:06 :: 0 recommendations
Ok- There is many a sacs in the King's Gambit on f7 because it a common theme because of the open f-file and such. There is also an idea in the Giuoco Piano with this idea called the Jerome Gambit. It goes: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. Bxf7? Kxf7 5. Nxe5 Nxe5 6. Qh5+ which regains the piece but you're still in a crappy position and don't really have an attack as you sacked both developed pieces you had for a knight or bishop and two pawns.....by the way this opening sucks major so don' think about trying it! An early sac of a piece should really be refuted except maybe some cheap Bxh7+ crap in the French or other openings!
rkatteri
Joined : 24 Feb '02
Moves : 6
03 Jan '03 15:42 :: 0 recommendations
I think you are refering to the "Classic Bishop Sacrifice": It might occur in the french defense, for example after the following moves 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 The typical formation is Bishop on d3,Knight on f3 and Queen on d1 . It is important that there is no black knight on f6 defending the king so a pawn on e5 is helpful. Then after black castles, Bxf7 Kxf7, Ng5+ Kg8, Qh5 threatens Qh7# This is a true sacrifice, in the sense that it is often played even if there is no clear win in sight, rather it gives white the attack and puts black on the defensive.
!~TONY~!
I have a problem
Location : Your Kingside
Joined : 28 Sep '01
Moves : 33068
03 Jan '03 17:59 :: 0 recommendations
Although the classic bishop sac, or the "Greek Gift", is sometimes incorrect, sometimes it always leads to forced mate, in which it sucks for the other guy!
PawnBroker99
Joined : 30 Jul '02
Moves : 4031
04 Jan '03 19:00 :: 0 recommendations
thx to all for these informative and most helpful responses... cheers, dave
fexkorn
Dad
Joined : 17 Nov '01
Moves : 28351
06 Jan '03 17:33 :: 0 recommendations
those were all great responses! I've had a couple of occasions to sacrifice a knight for what ends up as 2 pawns and that king move to recapture. While I did force the king to move, I also (in hindsight) sacrificed a developed piece, so it that is something to keep in mind. It does usually lead to exciting play so that's a nice side benefit. I suggest you play rhymester in the ruy lopez. When you try the fork trick w/ him, he kamakazi's his bishop and then recaptures the knight after the king is forced to capture. We played 2 consecutive games like this. He wound up mating me in about 14 moves in one game. In the other, he missed a golden oportunity that I left for him and I wound up beating up on him. Generally speaking though, I agree w/ t1000. If the defensive player is carefull, I think the sacrifice will wind up hurting the aggressor.
Message
PawnBroker99
Joined : 30 Jul '02
Moves : 4031
03 Jan '03 00:25 :: 0 recommendations
hi all, i'm relatively new to chess...anyhoo, i heard somehwere about capturing a pawn very early in the game with a bishop so only the king could re-capture, thereby slyly luring the king out off the back rank, susceptible to attack.....does anyone know what this is called/what' it's all about? and if this type of daring sacrifice has any merit...... cheers, tally ho, d-
Xenophile
The Jonster
Location : K-PAX
Joined : 16 Feb '02
Moves : 6418
03 Jan '03 01:35 :: 0 recommendations
I don't know what this tactic is called, but I've used it a couple times. To no great success I might add. Though I have never had great success with chess no matter what I do! The king does come under very early attack this way, and it usually never again finds itself well defended because, most importantly, it has lost the option of castling. And that's all I have to say about that. I'd be interested in learning more about this as well...
T1000
1 edit
Joined : 29 Jul '01
Moves : 60852
03 Jan '03 03:38 :: 0 recommendations
The weakest squares at the start of a game are f7 (for black) and f2 (for white). Only the king defends these squares. There exists openings which seek to exploit this (mainly openings for white against black). It only really works though if you follow these openings, for if you just make a few moves then wham sacrifice a piece on f7 then yes you will get a pawn, and you will get the king moving but that is all, which is not enough. But...like I said, there are openings which do have their plus points where a piece sac on f7 may pay dividends. Against top, top, top players these openings may be a little unsound. However, black needs to play very carefully a lot of the time to survive the initial onslaught so against weaker players these openings pose more of a threat. Often there are only one or two correct moves for black available - the top, top players will find them no probs, lesser players may not quite so easily. Unfortunately I don't have the time to find some example games for you, or to give the moves for some of the openings. What I can do is suggest that you go to a post in the Help and Site Ideas forum where the FENs are given for a number of openings. Under the part "Fun and Interesting Openings and Gambits" (something like that) there are a few which involve a sacrifice on f7. Off the top of my head the Cochrane Gambit is one, the Pegatello (Fried Liver) Attack is another. You may like to investigate these openings, where in both cases a knight is sacrificed on f7. Also, Bbar and Miss Take played a game (I have no wish to talk about the politics surrounding that game, this is the "only chess" forum) where a double sacrifice (one on f7) was undertaken by white and white went on to win with a monster attack very quickly. You might want to search for this game. Further, Bbar posted a thread regarding the Cochrane Gambit a few months back. Sintubin agreed to play a game against Bbar with this opening. Check it out. So, conclusion? 1. Don't just sacrifice on f7 if all you get back is a pawn and the moving of the king. Know what you're plan is on how you are going to exploit and attack the king on f7. 2. Look out for possible forks (where a piece attacks in one direction and also attacks in another, different, direction. Often with the king out on f7 moving the queen to f3 will cause black to have to defend the check, which may allow the white queen then to reclaim a piece elsewhere on the board. 3. Against outstanding players some, if not all, of the sacrificial openings on f7 early doors are unlikely to come off and succeed. 4. If you are black and it happens to you, play with great care for a few moves in the immediate aftermath. If you can withold white's charge and aggresion in the short term then you will have the long term advantage. Mark
!~TONY~!
I have a problem
Location : Your Kingside
Joined : 28 Sep '01
Moves : 33068
03 Jan '03 05:06 :: 0 recommendations
Ok- There is many a sacs in the King's Gambit on f7 because it a common theme because of the open f-file and such. There is also an idea in the Giuoco Piano with this idea called the Jerome Gambit. It goes: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. Bxf7? Kxf7 5. Nxe5 Nxe5 6. Qh5+ which regains the piece but you're still in a crappy position and don't really have an attack as you sacked both developed pieces you had for a knight or bishop and two pawns.....by the way this opening sucks major so don' think about trying it! An early sac of a piece should really be refuted except maybe some cheap Bxh7+ crap in the French or other openings!
rkatteri
Joined : 24 Feb '02
Moves : 6
03 Jan '03 15:42 :: 0 recommendations
I think you are refering to the "Classic Bishop Sacrifice": It might occur in the french defense, for example after the following moves 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 The typical formation is Bishop on d3,Knight on f3 and Queen on d1 . It is important that there is no black knight on f6 defending the king so a pawn on e5 is helpful. Then after black castles, Bxf7 Kxf7, Ng5+ Kg8, Qh5 threatens Qh7# This is a true sacrifice, in the sense that it is often played even if there is no clear win in sight, rather it gives white the attack and puts black on the defensive.
!~TONY~!
I have a problem
Location : Your Kingside
Joined : 28 Sep '01
Moves : 33068
03 Jan '03 17:59 :: 0 recommendations
Although the classic bishop sac, or the "Greek Gift", is sometimes incorrect, sometimes it always leads to forced mate, in which it sucks for the other guy!
PawnBroker99
Joined : 30 Jul '02
Moves : 4031
04 Jan '03 19:00 :: 0 recommendations
thx to all for these informative and most helpful responses... cheers, dave
fexkorn
Dad
Joined : 17 Nov '01
Moves : 28351
06 Jan '03 17:33 :: 0 recommendations
those were all great responses! I've had a couple of occasions to sacrifice a knight for what ends up as 2 pawns and that king move to recapture. While I did force the king to move, I also (in hindsight) sacrificed a developed piece, so it that is something to keep in mind. It does usually lead to exciting play so that's a nice side benefit. I suggest you play rhymester in the ruy lopez. When you try the fork trick w/ him, he kamakazi's his bishop and then recaptures the knight after the king is forced to capture. We played 2 consecutive games like this. He wound up mating me in about 14 moves in one game. In the other, he missed a golden oportunity that I left for him and I wound up beating up on him. Generally speaking though, I agree w/ t1000. If the defensive player is carefull, I think the sacrifice will wind up hurting the aggressor.
graphic by Jeff Bucchino, "The Wizard of Draws"
